Wolves, Ranchers, and the Cost of Conservation: A Conversation with Jessica Vigil from Elwood Ranch

 All right. Welcome to this episode of North State Rocks podcast. Today's episode features Jessica Vigil, a North State native grew up on the Dixie Valley Ranch, tied to the ranching community at her roots, at her DNA. Just an incredible human. We put her on the spot and really asked her about the impact that wolves are having on North State ranchers, and I think if anybody has paid attention to this at all, it's a hot, hot topic. It's devastating to ranchers what's happening, the policies around what they cannot do as a rancher to protect themselves is, is pretty, pretty incredible to hear directly from Jess and what they're dealing with. And I'm just really excited for this episode to get out and really appreciate Jesse's time.

Welcome to the North State Rocks podcast. Discover the hidden gems and extraordinary people of California's North State region. Join Perry Thompson, CEO of Hat Creek Construction Materials, as he explores the vibrant communities and interesting neighbors that make our region a great place to live, work, and play. Tune in, be inspired, and rediscover the North state. This is your community. This is your story.

Okay. Hi, Jess. Nice to see you. It's good. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

Great. So we have Jess vigil. Uh, so give us your your title and who you're working for now, Jess.

Uh, so I work for Elwood Ranch. Um, they kind of have all kind of businesses right now, but, um, they're getting into the restaurant business. They have a beef direct to consumer business, and then, um, registered Angus, uh, seed sock business. So they sell bulls to commercial buyers, and they're kind of. They have their hands in everything.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. That's awesome. Okay, so what I'm excited to talk to you about today is kind of I've talked to I've talked to you about this topic about about wolves in general and kind of northeastern California that's, you know, the it's called North State Rocks podcast. So we're trying to focus on North State issues and, you know, achievements and challenges and opportunities and all of those things. Right. So, uh, you know, my family comes from a ranching background. Uh, still run cattle. My aunt and uncle still run cattle. Uncle now still runs cattle. Um, so, uh, you have kind of been in the forefront of the wolf world. In fact, it's funny, I was talking to, uh, ranching family that, uh, recently has had some devastating losses. Um, and, and I invited them on the podcast or asked actually asked them, like, who would be the best person. And they unanimously a couple of different ranchers said, Jess Vee Hill is the one she is. She's the best to talk about this. So whether you agree or disagree, you have been voted as, uh, at least our initial spokesperson for this topic. So can you just Jess, can you just start with your background and kind of where where you grew up and just kind of let people understand that you've been kind of grounded in the ranching world since birth and just catch us up a little bit on that, please.

Yeah. So I grew up on Dixie Valley Ranch. Um, throughout. Yeah, 18 years lived there, worked, um, probably harder than a kid should have, but it, uh, built character. Um. I came back, I went to school in Oklahoma and then came back and went to work again for Dixie Valley and kind of saw the wolf issue explode. Um, and it's such a new thing, new challenge for ranchers that, um, you know, it's hard to navigate for anyone. Um, and so I, I, I remember the first kill that I saw, it was, um, the heifer actually wasn't dead like she was, um, they had paralyzed her, and, um, it was just it was really hard to see. And it hits you on an emotional level because it's just like you're trying to keep these cattle alive. You do everything to take care of them from birth. And this thing that's beyond our control is now, um, threatening, you know, our herd, and we can't do anything to stop it.

So elaborate on. We can't do anything to stop it. So just just take our listeners through. Um, contrast maybe California versus, you know, other states on what can and can't be done if you're a rancher watching your, uh, heifer getting slaughtered. What are their options as a.

So phase one, we have moved to phase two of the wolf management plan. So there are certain measures you can do, but, um, any direct harassment of the wolf is not allowed. And, um, I think it creates more of a problem because in phase one, which we were in for, I mean, basically from 2020 until 2025, um. There was no you could not do anything to haze them. And so the wolves never got a negative connotation of humans. And so now we have conditioned them to not have a negative, um, interaction with humans. You know, they, they see us, they don't fear us. And so it's not necessarily a normal wild interaction with wolves. They're, um, they're not scared of us. Uh, you know, they're coming by houses. I know the kill that happened in Hat Creek. Um, not even a month ago. It happened 200 yards from their house. Um, and so that's scary. It's just a it's a whole nother level of a threat. Um, a common misconception is this only happens on public land. Um, you know, Forest Service allotments, BLM allotments. And I just went through the wolf report that they come out with quarterly and. I did not see any on public land. They were all on private ranchers land.

Yeah. Yeah. So. And let's just just talk about what qualifies as a, you know, making the report. You know, I've been doing a little research on this, and I guess probably the part I was most shocked about was, you know, statistically and this is from, you know, this is like using AI and and just kind of what I would call non-biased or if it's biased, it's probably biased against ranchers. Uh, that data is saying one out of seven kills is actually recorded as a kill because a there can't there can't be any scavenger. If there's been any scavenger activity on it doesn't count, which, you know, doesn't take long. If, as we all know, the wolves kill, they eat what they they they it's almost like a I don't want to get off topic there because that's a whole nother conversation. But basically, can you elaborate on what qualifies as a kill and not as a kill? Um, because I was shocked at how many hoops are set up in front of the ranchers for this.

Yeah, I'll go through the process. So the first thing you do, if you see, um, I mean, bones, anything that you think might be a wolf kill, as you call, uh, the federal trapper. In the area or California Department of Fish and Wildlife, and they come out and basically do a full blown investigation into that death. And so they will skin the animal. They will look for hemorrhaging. Um, a lot of times you don't really see anything outside of the skin. And then they get to to skin the cow and the shoulders are just ripped to shreds. Um, it's just there's. So they go through, they take DNA, um, samples, and they send they make that determination, and they send that off to California Department of Fish and Wildlife. Whether it's a probable, um, confirmed or it is not. Um, and there are a lot of deaths. There was one in particular of a heifer. And she, you know, I went and checked the pasture and come back and she's just kind of humped over on a rock, like she obviously dead, uh, but like, her front legs are behind her. And there were some signs that she had been chased, but not a lot. And so I thought for sure they would not confirm this kill. But they came out and skinned her, and she had hemorrhaging all over. And so it obviously it was like a slow kill. And a lot of times what gets them is exertional myopathy. So it's, um, basically their heart just explodes from the pursuit. And so. So basically talking to ranchers, if you have a kill, that does not look right. Um, like in my mind, that heifer, I thought maybe she had, um, something had happened. Like health wise. Um, but, like, if you have anything that's just kind of odd. Call the trapper and have him come, um. Investigate it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually a positive example of of actually something that could have been argued that it wasn't a wolf kill, but they actually went the extra distance and kind of confirmed.

So what you're saying is basically that that heifer was basically ran to death. Just they ran it, ran it, ran it until it died. But then what? So can you explain why the wolves would run a heifer to death and then not to take a bite out of it?

It's basically training their young how to kill. So I, I don't, um, a lot of people say it's thrill killing, and I don't, I mean, I don't you can't. It's not like you can speak to the wolf and ask him, are you having fun? But really, they are just training. So like the yearling pups that they have, they're just training them how to kill. What is the most effective way to kill? How to, um, basically paralyze an animal and then go after it. But there's a lot of not even the, um, confirmed losses. But there are so many indirect losses that ranchers are facing, like conception rates go down. Um, they can go down as far as, like 20 to 30% when these cows are under this constant stress. So then next year's calf crop is smaller. They there is, um, weight loss from 3 to 5%. So they're calves that they're weaning and sending to market are weighing 3 to 5% less. And it's, there's so many, um, just immeasurable things that go on with the herd. Not even the direct losses which the direct losses are being reimbursed. Um, sometimes you have to wait a long time to get that money, but there there are funds in there right now. Yeah. So so let's elaborate on that just a little bit. So, um, when I was looking at so you did a good job of kind of touching on that, like to dive a little deeper. Um, again, just trying to prepare for this, this podcast, it was quoting 15 to 20% actual realization of of lost of loss is about 15 to 20% when you factor in some of the things you're talking about. So when, um, our herd is under stress, right. They have, uh, higher, um, uh, miscarriage rates, they have lower weight gain. Um, they're especially on kind of, you know, a lot of people take their, you know, the genetics are super important. And it was talking about how and again, I'm asking I'm not saying, but, uh, the, the misconception, I think for a lot of people is they just kind of go get the week, you know, they get the calves or they get the old cow. And some of what I was reading about is that their, their, their pattern seems to be more about, you know, calves, obviously, but also nursing, nursing. Um. Mom cows and then. And then heifers, uh, which, you know, are there's a there's a real high value there right in line for the, the bloodline you're trying to build. Right. And they're kind of attacking the actual bloodline at the, at the worst point.

So can you just. Is that accurate or is that one of my reading kind of not accurate?

No, definitely. Um, they I, I mean, I've seen it time and time again. The wolves will go after what they want to eat. That it's not it. It is such a misconception that they kill the sick in the week. Um, that one heifer I talked about that, um, had the exertional myopathy. She was the biggest and strongest one in the herd. You know, they will go after what they want. Um, if they're going to go through the motions of doing it, they're smart enough to know, like, hey, that one looks good. Um, the unrealized losses again. Are those. So, like, if they kill a cow in the prime of her production, three to, you know, five years old, she would. You're losing the calves that she was going to have on your ranch in the future also. And that's something that's not reimbursed. Um, you know, you lose a replacement heifer and. She could have had ten calves for you. Um, that hands up quickly. And the replacements right now to to buy to buy one like that. I mean, I saw the other day there were some that sold for $5,200, you know, and so it it's a lot of money and yeah, you know, you're getting say you get 3500 for her. That's a lot of lost revenue that you have in the future.

Oh yeah. So well you said we're kind of went through phase one and phase one kind of, you know, taught them not to be afraid of of humans. And then phase two, kind of elaborate on what what can be done for phase two now if you're a rancher.

Uh, so they actually, um, some movement with California Department of Fish and Wildlife, um, in Sierra Valley, there were chronic depredations. So that wolf pack, um, they. Killed and killed and killed almost daily. And so they had a strike team there that would haze them off. Well, it would just haze them to the next ranch over. And so it would just kill that ranchers cattle. And it just it got to a point where finally they did take out, um, four they took out three of the adult, um, wolves and then one yearling. And so I think that gave some ranchers some optimism that in the future, if there is a problem pack, maybe something will happen. But, um, on the other side of that, I think with the amount of backlash that California Department of Fish and Wildlife has received from doing that, I think they will be more cautious in the future and more hesitant to take management into their own hands. And, you know, if there is a problem, Wolf, do something about it, because, um, and there's also no clear guidelines. What defines a problem, Wolf? Um, you know, three weeks ago, one ranch had six. Calves killed. And when I say Cavs I mean £600, uh, weaned Cavs. And that's in a three day period. And it's like how how do we define um, you know, that seems like a problem to me that revenue was lost. They were on they were about to be shipped and sold. Um, and so there's just a lot of unclear guidelines by California Department of Fish and Wildlife. Um, and there's also a lot of secrecy within the organization. And I understand they want to keep their wolves safe, but they need to I think they need to see from our perspective, we're not in the business of killing things just to kill them. You know, our whole business is set upon keeping something alive. And we understand there are predators all over. We deal with mountain lions, bears. Um, the predator population is huge right now, and we don't just, um, we don't want to kill things. We are conservation analysts. Um, and so it's hard to not have the trust of them. Uh, they kind of look at us with suspicion. Always. Um. But ranchers have the most to lose when it comes to the situation. And they're right now. They're protected at the state and federal level. And there have been some comments that at the federal level, um, some protections might come off of them. But here in California, we are still facing them, their protections. Um, so even if the federal stuff comes off, there's still they're still protected, which is I, I think people don't understand. They reproduce. Um, you know, they'll have 7 to 10 pups a year. And so the population right now, there's 11 confirmed, um, packs, but there are a lot that they don't know that aren't collared. Um, and so I think the population expands quickly and management practices have to expand quickly. And that's something that our state has not done so far. Yeah. Yeah I was that's exactly what I was reading that, you know, 7 to 10 pups. Um. Per per. Is that per year, Jess? Is that the timeframe? That's the year or so. Once a year. And then so. And then there also another stat was a 30 to 35% population increase each year. And of course that's not a linear curve. That's an exponential curve because as it's 35% more, you know, it's 35% more of, you know, each group is 35% five years from now. Uh, is way more than 35% today, if that makes sense. It's an exponential curve instead of a linear curve. So yeah, that was a I agree with what you're what you're talking about. And then also I one of the things I was just, you know, trying to be prepared for this is that the the California, the original California Wolf, these are not original California wolves that they're reintroducing there. Um, I read that Canadian and also some maybe some from Idaho, but overall they're. Again and again. In fact, checking me on this. But what I read was that there are roughly £60 heavier than the original California Wolf, and also that the original California Wolf was more of a solitary creature and not a very cunning pack killing machine. Um, so these are very different wolves than were here, however long ago. Is that is that accurate in what you know, or is that that is what I've researched as well. So there I think they are bigger. So, um, you know, the ones that our ancestors dealt with here, um, they were 40 to £50 and these ones are 100. And I don't have the scientific facts on this because a lot of, uh, so I, I try to read all the pro wolf stuff just to understand. And a lot of those people say they are the normal species, but, um, as far as, you know, what what the other side says, they say they aren't, um, I just know they are very smart. And when there's a pack of seven chasing cows, they're going to get them. You know, they're very smart hunters. They're it's it's amazing quite honestly.

So in your experience, uh, and what you've learned so far, are they just killing cattle once in a while or, and then, you know, 90% of the time they're killing deer and, you know, other things or is is. If they if they have their choice, they're going to go to cattle each time. Or is it just I happen to be passing through and and here's some cattle. So we're going to kill some cattle as we're, as we're passing through the territory. Kind of what is what is your experience with that?

I think they originally they started killing deer and elk. Um, and they still do. Um, but our unregulate population is very, uh, it's declined, you know, a lot. And so they are going to get the easiest meal that's the tastiest. And I think they've just learned that beef is an easy target and it's a big meal. And they they've just been conditioned to kill cattle at this point you see.

Okay. So some of the other ranchers I've been talking to, um, are I'm going to say you're doing a great job being not emotional about this and kind of playing both sides, which I appreciate. Uh, but some of the more, uh, understandably emotional ranchers that I've talked to. And, again, I want some kind of using you as a, as a fact checker. And because you've been on the frontlines of this as well. Um, obviously there's the examples that, hey, they kill the calf and, and they, they completely eat it. And it's, you know, like a, a true meal and the whole, the whole herd eats it. And but what I'm being described, what most people are describing to me is that it is more of that which you kind of disagreed with about it kind of being a sport. But that was more of a there as a rancher is really difficult to watch because they, they don't go attack the neck and kill it and put it down and then eat. They tear out the soft flesh and again training their younger ones to how to, you know, it's alive and it's still so there. And it's more of a soft flesh thing that might eat, you know, one, 1/20 of the animal if that, and then leave it. And it's just a, there's so how much of that kind of what I would say is, you know, obviously a highly emotional, um, example versus, hey, they they needed a meal and they killed a calf, kind of ate it complete and moved on. Which story are you seeing more of in the real world?

I think it's more of they kill a couple one night, so they'll kill 2 in 1 evening, and they might eat a part of one, and then that's about it. So the six that I was talking about that happened, um, I think they ate one of those and the rest were just killed. Um, and I think that I and I don't know, I've heard the term surplus killing. I don't know, I just know that it's devastating for ranchers. It's, you know, it would be one thing if, you know, with my online kills, they'll kill something and they'll go take it up a tree or bury it and go back to it. Um, at least the animals being used. But these animals that are being tortured, uh, it's it's so hard to see. And then it's also, you know, if it's a calf that's on a cow seeing the cow. Um. Just wrecked because she's protected her calf all night. And then, you know, the wolves finally got it, and she's exhausted and just it's it's really hard to watch.

Yeah. Okay, so, um, this is this is a heavy topic, so I want to I want to kind of move to, you know, what the you know, the ranchers are basically handcuffed in this state in particular. Now, I want to ask, I was reading that currently California is the only state. So Oregon and Washington has Wolf issues as well. Okay. And again, I need you to be the fact checker. But, um, they at least can use non-lethal rubber bullets. They can use, you know, warning shots, you know, like shooting over the animals, just the loud gun nature to kind of scare us. Part of the hazing. Um, that is what I learned was literally legal right above us in Oregon, in Washington. But in this state, for some reason, they can't even use that non-lethal. Um, the only people that can haze is like, you know, uh, Fish and Wildlife with their drones and that kind of stuff. Is that accurate? Like the ranchers literally can't do a single thing. Is that is that right, or is that wrong, Jess?

I'm gonna fact check that right quick, Perry. Let me pause. Okay.

Okay. All right. You fact check that? Yeah. And I was. And it's okay if you don't know, it's okay to say you don't know. Um, I'm just trying to see where I saw you now. And while you're fact checking that, I remember talking years ago about O.R. seven. Mhm. And again, while we're fact checking, it says the O.R. seven bloodline spreads faster than any other wolf in the West.

Oh. That's crazy.

Disperses further than typical packs, produces larger pack sizes as high survival rates, and expands into ranch lands instead of the wilderness. Biologists quietly acknowledge that this is not normal wolf behavior. And again, this is from ChatGPT. Okay, I'm not going to say I'm some smart guy here, but, uh, and I know that ChatGPT isn't always. Can't always take it to the back. That's why I'm kind of just talking to you about this stuff as well.

Right. Okay, so the hazing. Basically, you can use a drone spotlights the loud noises. The rancher can, the rancher can. The drone spotlights loud noises. Um, no shots or anything?

Nothing. Yeah. To hurt the animal. Um, but the other thing is, the wolves are so smart. Like, they, um, they get used to it very quickly, and they learn to do it, you know, in the middle of the night, which, um, is, you know, there are ranchers that are staying up all night taking shifts to protect their animals. Um, and still coming up, you know, in the morning when it's light and having kills, like, it's just, um, kind of a lose lose situation.

Yeah. Demoralizing is how I would put that. I mean, you're you're doing every effort that you can to protect your investment, and I'm just. Yeah. It's just very difficult. So. Yeah. So let's just try and acknowledge the. You know the other side here. Obviously we've been talking about ranchers and and how bad it is for them. So obviously I'm pro rancher I'm pro North State I'm highly biased. So I'm going to say say that I think it's absolute bullshit what ranchers are having to deal with. And um, and I think that the fact that they can't I mean, it seems like rubber bullets, what seems like a very, uh, reasonable option, non-lethal. And maybe that's even even Fish and wildlife is like saying it has to be, you know, this gun that you pay for, these bullets that we've tested that are non-lethal. This is the only thing you can use. It can't be out there making your super, your super powerful bullets that, you know, still kill them or whatever.

I'm sure I understand the concerns I do. I really understand the concerns. But, you know, I think you hit a good point and you said it beautifully, which is the packs are increasing. Really, really fast. And that means the the techniques that we're using needs to evolve really, really fast. And if we don't figure out how to kind of teach them to a cattle or not just an easy meal, um, they're never going to go into the wild and really be wolves, which are killing, you know, you hit it.

That's a whole nother podcast for how many predators have gone crazy in this state with these protective things that, uh, you know, ten years ago, 20 years ago didn't exist. And now the deer populations and out populations are getting decimated. But okay, let's just not talk about that and assume there's plenty of deer and plenty of elk and plenty of rabbits and things for them to eat. Uh, let's just assume that for the moment, if we don't curb the training, I mean, they're literally training the pups how to kill. And so what are the pups going to do? They're not going to be out there trying to figure out how to chase down a really fast rabbit to eat it. They're going to be they're going to be like, oh, it's cool. Let's go find some more ranches, right? I mean, it's just it's just like if you had a dog that was killing chickens and you do nothing to stop that dog from killing chickens, the dog is going to continue killing chickens. You know, it's right. Um, there's not really any negative. Thing that happens. I mean, they are athletes and they're so smart. And that's I mean, the thrill killings. I think it's a training exercise of this is how you do it. And. Yeah, and, you know, when there's seven pups in the litter that will disperse and they're all learning those principles, this is how you kill. And this is the easy meal in this situation. You know, there's a there's a meadow and there are deer, elk, cattle. The cattle are the easiest.

Yeah, 100%. They're the slowest. They're fenced. They're fenced in.

Yeah. They're sitting ducks. Fences. Yeah.

Yes, yes. Sitting ducks. Yeah. Okay, okay. Um, well, that was great. So I just kind of wanted to talk about. So you have done a good job, you know, of kind of talking about how difficult things are for ranchers. So can you said you read a lot of pro wolf stuff, which I think is really, really smart because you have to understand what is motivating. These policies in the state of California. And, you know, it's super easy to say, oh my gosh, I watched Dances With Wolves with Kevin Costner. And Wolves are the greatest things ever. They're such sweet animals, which I didn't even look like a wolf to me. I'm just going to say that right now. Didn't look like it looked like a coyote to me. But nonetheless, um, if you're in the city, you're never out in the wilderness. You're never out in the woods. You don't know any ranchers. You haven't had any ranchers. The people that are really pushing these policies are probably the same people that voted that thought that, you know, proposition 50 was a great idea and gerrymandering the state. Right? So the people in the cities, uh, think they understand what we deal with, but they don't have a clue in my mind. But just from the pro wolf standpoint, what is it that makes them want to protect wolves just because they're beautiful creatures? I'm just I mean, they are. They're beautiful. They're cunning. You said they're athletes. They're incredible. But I'm trying to understand the philosophy about protecting them. What do you think? Do you think they're not seeing the kills? Is that. Is it? Do you think it's not being that part of the of the wolf thing is not being, I think, educated to these people. They are so far removed. So they are in, you know, um, urban areas. And they think that Yellowstone is how California should be in the rural areas. And, oh, let's go see a wolf. And, you know, that would be the best thing ever. But this is coming at the cost of our rural communities. You know, this is people's livelihoods that are being, um, killed and taken from them. And it's I, I don't understand it. And I don't think we're ever going to convince the advocates of it, but I think the people that are in the middle that, um. That have some common sense and and can see the other side of it and see the ranchers plead for help that, you know, is happening right now. Um, I think those are the people that we are most effective at communicating with and trying to educate. Um, I don't think we're ever going to to convince the person I was, uh, I was on a zoom, um, and it was California Department of Fish and Wildlife a while back, and there was a guy in San Diego and he said, well, people shouldn't even be there. You know, the wolves were here first. And, um, it should just be wildlife and wolves and, you know, a Disney fairy tale, basically. And it's like you're never going to convince that person. Um, but I think anybody with a little common sense can see that we're struggling up here. And, uh, it's not a sustainable, um, system that we have right now. Um, there are small producers, and when they lose three calves, that's that's a big deal. And when their herd is not breeding back, that's it's a big deal. And it's, um, threatening to the business. And, you know, ranching in California is not easy by any means without these outside forces. So, um, we just I think it's important to keep our ranchers in mind. Um. Throughout all of this.

Yeah, that's really well said. You know, I. I have several friends, friends in the egg industry. And ironically, right now in current climate conditions, you know, with, um, input costs and inflation run and rampant and that kind of thing. People that are farmers are getting crushed right now, economically crushed. And people don't really recognize how hard it is to be an alfalfa producer right now. Yeah. Or, you know, you name the commodity. Virtually every commodity in the state of California is, is literally on the edge of, of survival and generational farming operations or are filing for bankruptcy. Um, there is just a some real challenges going on in the ag industry in general. Now, you flip that around to the farmers and talk about ranchers who who are really, you know, leading with cattle. And, you know, most cattle operations also have ag operations, but are heavily focused on on cattle. Cattle prices are great. Um, cattle and in general, uh, and it's very it's very cyclical.

Right. So this wasn't true. However many years ago, the ranchers were getting killed. And what people don't understand is that ranchers and farmers understand the cyclical nature of the business they're in. Yeah. Um, and recognize and they plan for the downtimes and they're really resilient at, at fighting through these, these, these big downturns. But the challenge is, is when the upturn happen, you need to be able to take full advantage of them because, you know, there's going to be years that you're getting pummeled. And so what's really sad is a lot of people have this, well, you know, ranchers are doing great. The prices are great. And even when they're reimbursed, they're reimbursed at great rates because, you know, cattle prices are really high. Not recognizing. Well, yeah, that might be true today. But four years from now, literally, they could be down in the dumps again and losing money on every single animal they're selling. And so. I don't know his sister. I hope.

I hope you're right that there's some common sense that's coming into play, and that we can at least be speaking to the people in the middle. You're right. We're never we're never going to extreme. We're never going to convince the extreme left. We're never going to convince the extreme right of of opposing opinions. It's just, you know, there's those camps that are so entrenched that, you know, don't don't confuse me with the facts.

You know, I am I'm going to die on this hill. It's it's the moderates in the middle that we're really trying to talk to. Right. I guess that's the case. So, um, anyway, I think you've done a great job kind of talking about that. So what else are we not covering? Um, that's that you want to bring up at this point, Jess?

Um, so we our company, um, is in the process of starting a nonprofit, um, to help ranchers. Uh, we are planning on having kind of a concert series. Event series to raise funds, um, to educate the public on what ranchers are going through, um, to help cover costs of the, um, fencing changes, the management practices that have to change for the ranches, um, that are facing these wolves. Um, and so that's kind of a new project that we are starting because we saw the need for it, because you are only reimbursed for the actual loss, um, of the animal. And there's a lot of other costs that come with the wolf presents that are not being covered. And so, yeah, that's an exciting thing that we're starting.

So where can we find more information about that? Um, and if we're interested in figuring out how to support that process, is there more information to come and if so, where do we find it?

So there's a website. It's ranches with wolves. Com. And we, um, there will be social media sites. Haven't started that yet. Wanted to get the, uh, website up and kind of, uh, inform the public about it first. Kind of go go to ranchers and let them know what we're doing. Um, and yeah, it'll be, you know, we're kind of focusing on the North State right now. Uh, but our goal is to, you know, make it a big thing.

That's incredible. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. That's really exciting. Um, okay. So ranches with wolves.com. And is that website active now where it's about to be.

It is up. It's up now.

Amazing.

And so there's a contact form on there. So anybody who is dealing with these losses you know we always see the Facebook stuff here and there of, you know, the kills. But um, there's a contact form on that website and the ranchers are welcome to, you know, submit any kills they have and we can kind of track them. Um, or if someone wants to partner with us, um, they can contact us there.

Okay. Okay. So I just thought of something that I wanted to follow up with, uh, mid podcast with you and that, and you just brought it up again. And that was the trappers and the incredible lengths that they are going to confirm or not confirm kills. So, um, how many. I you know, I have heard and again, just rumor, but I've heard there's not a lot of federal trappers and there's kind of a, uh, they're the poor trappers are pretty overwhelmed right now. And and again, I. Is that your experience?

Um, 100%. These guys are working seven days a week. Um, you know, they'll get a call at 9 p.m. on a Saturday and have to go drive two hours to go investigate this kill. Um, they they're also, uh, the best people. I mean, they are trustworthy. They they have to see these emotional kills as well, and it affects them. You know, they've everyone that I've dealt with, they have said, you know, this is. This is taxing. And, you know, they're working, uh, seven days a week. They're overextended. So in your experience, are they is there? I mean, I could just imagine. I'm. And again, I'm no expert in this, and I'm in the construction world, so I'm not tied to ranching like you are, but, uh, it seems like, you know, there's a lot of. I mean, I'm just recently, uh, we had a dinner planned, um, a large dinner planned, and a family from the Bieber area was coming, and they cancelled and said, you know, um, I think they said the Harvey Pack is is in Bieber, and we're going to be up all night. We're not coming to the dinner. And, you know, that was, you know, shortly after the people in Hack Creek had communicated with me about their kills and, you know, the siskin stuff going on. Ah. Right now.

Are the trappers able to cover, uh, everything or they is it sometimes having to take a day or two or longer to get to those areas because they're just so overworked at this point?

It'll I mean, sometimes they're, uh, they're definitely overworked. Um, you know, it can take about 12 hours max to get there. Um, in the meantime, what ranchers can do is cover that carcass with a tarp to prevent any scavengers. Um, and kind of preserve some evidence. Um, I think in certain counties I know Modoc County and Sierra County, uh, their sheriffs are also getting involved. And so, um, I know maybe they're keeping their own, um, DNA profiles of the wolves just as backup. Um, and the last King County sheriff. He's also great. John McGarvey. Um, he. I had a meeting one time, and he came out, and, um, he's. Our sheriffs are supporting us in that aspect. But there is. There's a need, I don't know. Um, I think California Department of Fish and Wildlife wants the ranchers to to go to them more. But there is some there is some mistrust there. And I think that, you know, the trappers, ranchers trust the trappers. And so they want the trappers there.

That's great. That's great that the ranchers trust the trappers. And yeah, I mean, I'm talking about what a difficult job. Right? So you, uh, can you just take a minute with just thinking about. Hey, you know, someone's calling. This is, you know, people don't understand that these cattle are family to these ranchers. And everyone's like, oh, well, you know, you guys kill them and turn them to meat. Well, that's true after they've had an incredible life and they protect them. And listen, we all of us pass. None of us get out of this world without passing. So they take great pride in protecting these animals and developing the bloodlines. Um, it is their lifestyle. It's what their whole family has been raised about. It is the glue that holds their. That their whole family's universe revolves around their social structures. Everything revolves around the cattle, right? And that whole cowboy lifestyle starts with cattle. And without it, it doesn't exist. And so then these trappers are having to go out and go.

Yes, I know you guys. Your guys's hands are tied. You can't do anything. You're watching your family get decimated before your very eyes, and there isn't anything legally that you can do about it. And and when we read that you can go to jail for a year. Uh, you know, people aren't stupid there. Yes. I love the animals. But I also need to be here to, you know, serve my family and put food on the table. So me being in prison, uh, to take out one wolf is just it's a it's a it's a it's a game I can't play. And I, and I completely understand that. But so then the trappers are going to these highly emotional ranchers and then seeing these horrific kills, um, I guess God bless them for doing it and working their tails off. And it makes at least it makes me feel good that your, your perception is that the ranchers still trust the trappers. Um, yeah. And that believe that they're working in their best interest from that. That makes me that makes me happy. Okay, so I want to talk to you now about. Who is paying for all this shit? I mean, that's the right. So it's ultimately California taxpayers we have. I don't know how big of a deficit. Do you have any feel for the kind of money I mean?

Okay, so we're talking about what the ranchers pay or what the ranchers get paid. That is, I can tell you, just as a business owner, that is that is a fraction, a tiny fraction of what it's really costing to employ, uh, and to deal with all of the policymaking and the big picture of dealing with all these wolves. It's a massive amount of money that the state is spending. So do you have a feel for that or not?

Just I don't have numbers. I know that there was a, um, $600,000 bill for reimbursement. Um, that was passed a couple years ago and quickly went through. And before that, I think there was a $3 million one and it that, um, the first funding covered Wolf presents. And so they covered, um, kind of a, I think it was a percentage of what your whole herd is worth. Um, but that money went quickly. Um, management practices. I know that, um, over in Sierra County, where they had the hazing teams, uh, going 24 hours a day, that that's not cheap. That's the it's a lot of money. A lot of money that we're funneling towards this.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, uh, Jess, you've been amazing. I've done a great job. Um, I've done a great job of just sticking to. Facts as you know them and not being emotional and an emotionally charged issue. So, um, I, I appreciate that and, uh, really appreciate your time. Um, so any last words that we have. Before we let you go?

I just, I think that I, I want the public to know how taxing this is on ranchers emotionally. And I know we touched on that. We talked about it. But, um, there's it's it's heartbreaking, quite honestly, as well as financially, you know, uh, bankrupting potentially. Uh, it's we renters are the toughest people, and they can shoulder a lot. But this is this is more than an industry should, you know, uh, from an outside force. And so I think just compassion towards those ranchers. Um, it no matter what, you know, something will come across my phone of a new kill, and it's, uh. It hits me just the same as, you know, if it were my own. Um, there was a video the other day and it was right on highway 97. Um, and it was some wolves chasing cows, and I think they eventually killed one. It wasn't on the video, but, um, it was a good glimpse for the public into seeing these animals in action. Um, I think just educating the public as far as, like what we are dealing with, um, that is the most we can do. Uh, but yeah, it's it's tough. It's tough.

So just let's just talk about that for a minute. So, um. You said, you know, it's heartbreaking, which is probably the best way to to say it for the ranching community. And and for me, the ranching community has always stood on their two feet. And they have, you know, they're not they're not the industry of government handouts. They are in the industry of of. Pull up your pull up your bootstraps and figure it out. There is no one coming to help you. And and they have been able to this this industry and this culture in general is everything that's good about America and America. Americans in that, you know, you live and die by what you produce. And we are out there feeding the nation. And, um, that is the only way we get paid is by benefiting other people, right? We don't we're not asking for help. We're not asking for handouts. Uh, we live and die by what we produce, and that's incredible. What's different this time for me is that these same people that have been given no help and have always had to deal with it on their own, have the additional unconscionable burden of. You can't do anything. You just have to watch it happen and sit back and don't do shit, or we're going to put you in prison. And to me, that is the part that of the the whole pro wolf argument is goes right out the window for me because, um, it is not we're not teaching them to be out in the wilderness and to be a wild animal, um, and live out in the wilderness. We're teaching them how to basically come in and, and get food designed for America, for the American public, as just sitting ducks. And they can't do a thing about it. So until we figure out, at least in my mind, um, rubber bullets or some a hazing that actually creates fear in the DNA of wolves to push them away from ranches and have them go survive in the wilderness. Um, you know, that's going to be that's that's the big that's the big problem with what's happening currently.

So. I had another thought I was going down that rabbit hole, but that was probably. Well, I actually have a story. Um, last winter, the Harvey pack, um, kept coming towards the housing on, um, on one ranch, and they there was a dog kennel and a, um, uh, weatherproof dog food container, and it was just like they had just filled it and the wolves took it and drug it up the hill, probably about 50 yards. And, um. California Department of Fish and Wildlife came in and investigated, and they said, well, that dog food is an attractant and you need to get rid of that. And it's like there are hundreds of thousands of acres on this ranch and surrounding area, and they are choosing to be right next to housing. Um, you know, one of the officials. The the wolves. There was a sand sandbox and the the kids that live there play in and uh, the wolves walked between the house and the sandbox and one of the officials walked by and she said, well, they probably the kids probably drop food here. And so that's probably an attractant. And it's like, at what point is this, at what point are these animals going to be wild, you know, and not around housing. And and it's just a blame game. They just blame the ranchers. And that's what they did. You know, they said, well, we had these attractants there and that's why they're by housing. And I, I, I don't understand in a perfect world, this is where it would work. But it's not working.

Right, right. You know, um, you I know where I was going originally when I lost my train of thought. And, um, it certainly be controversial, but it's factual. And that is, you said that video, and I remember I saw that video. I know exactly what video you're talking about. It was kind of just some random people that you could tell have no idea about the wolf issue at all, you know, and they're like, oh, look at that. And they're, oh my gosh, you're chasing something. Oh, oh, oh, they're chasing cattle. Oh wow. You know, and it's kind of you can see them. The awareness started to happen as they're watching like oh they're I think they're going to go kill that guy. And it's almost a little bit of a oh wow, I thought wolves were like out in the wild and, uh, not killing cattle. You could almost hear that in, in just how that natural thing was happening. So my question to you is, and again, I am more, um. Offensive oriented than defensive oriented. And so what is your thought about if you can use drones to haze and you can't really and that's not working and you're a rancher and you can't do anything. What is your thought about filming having really high production, filming happening of what is really happening and having a massive media campaign that is showing the horror that really does happen? I mean, that's the funny part. It's almost like even on Facebook it says, you know, you try and click on a picture and it's like, oh, you know, you gotta you gotta click like seven times to make sure you see this actual, this actual wolf kill. God forbid we actually show them, uh, you know, literally running animals to death. Uh, what are your what is your thoughts on that?

Is that a is that just Perry being a little dramatic here or, uh, I just I'm trying to feel like, how do you fight fire with fire? Right. And just go. The the absence of education is ignorance. And until we get ignorance solved in this, in this, in this issue, we're going to continue to have no support. And so we've got a trend. And maybe there's a better way than what I just described. But, uh, well, I tell you, it would be the most impactful immediately. Yeah, I think that, um, I think that is a kind of one of the things that, uh, would be effective. Um, I, I know the kill pictures. Um, they only do so much, and they are heartbreaking, and it's hard to look at, but, um, seeing them in action, I think that's. I know that video on 97, it it covered. I mean, there were I have friends on the East Coast that were sharing it and, uh, it did something it was just different, you know, and so I think, um, seeing them in action, um, I think that would be effective. And it's hard because, you know, the ranchers, there are people saying, oh, post every kill you have, you know, post it on Facebook and share it. And ranchers aren't. That person. You know, they're. They're not. And so not victims. Decentralized. You know, that's kind of what we're trying to do with the ranches, with wolves. Thing is just have a centralized storytelling, educational, um. Thing to help educate the public with.

Yeah. Well. Great discussion, Jess, I wish. I wish it had more solutions than just, say, presenting the problems. Uh, that's probably the part that, uh, I, I struggle with the most, but, uh, it starts with awareness. And if we can't at least get some awareness out there, uh, that's where we got to start. And you've done a huge favor to this community for for getting on the podcast and talking about it. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and your heart. Um, you're an amazing person. Um, one of your biggest fans always will be. So thank you for taking taking the time to spend some time with us here today.

Thank you Perry. Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. I, uh, I don't like being the spokesperson, but I want our ranchers to have a voice.

Yeah. I think any, um, any publication, any any advertisement of what they're going through is is helpful. Amazing. All right. Thank you so much. 

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